In an era where sound doctrine is viewed with contempt, and that uncertainity of truth is the desired mentality, as evangelicals we must fight for doctrinal purity and doctrinal clarity. It is of an eternal importance to get the gospel right. To be uncertain of the basic truths of the gospel is to lead billions of people to an eternity in the bottomless pit of hell. Doctrinal preciseness is vital to true Christianity.
On the flip side, I want to make a point from the scriptures that having good theology is not enough. There is more to the Christian life than having good theology. Having sound theology but not sound orthopraxy is hypocrisy. Notice what James says in his second chapter:
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe- and shudder!
James is writing this letter to the believers of the twelve tribes that have dispersed from Jerusalem. In the context of this particular verse James 2:19, James is speaking of a superficial faith versus and authentic faith in Christ. It is apparent that these people have good theology, because they affirm the biblical doctrine of the Trinity...You believe that God is one. Another truth that we see in this verse is that even demons believe this. The demons also affirm this doctrine. And they respond in fear, unlike most Christians! It seems as if the demons have a better response to sound doctrine than most "professing" Christians do. I believe that the demons probably have better theology than any human being on this earth. They recognize the sovereignty of God, yet they dishonor His kingship. They recognize that Jesus is Lord, yet they are in rebellion to his Lordship, not submission. Here we see they affirm the doctrine of the trinity, yet, they are still demons. They have good theology, but they do not trust in Christ, they have rejected God and are in opposition to everything pertaining to godliness.
Friend, what I want you to realize is that good theology, although it is of vital importance, is not enough. We must have nothing less than a concise theology, but we MUST go deeper into a genuine trust in the atonement and the Lordship of Christ, and our genuine faith will me manifest in the way that we live out our lives. Friend, even the demons have good theology. Are in the category with the demons, or do you presently trust in Christ for your salvation?
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30 comments:
Right, on, man!
There's a difference between knowing what to believe and actually believing it.
We're not saved by knowing all the ins and outs of sola gratia/sola fide: we're saved by actually having faith.
There are some good arguments that the demons comment is not James' words but that of an hypothetical opponent.
James' whole point in that chapter is that it is necessary to combine faith with works. If works are an inevitable outcome of faith, then that would hardly be a necessary point to make. If James was addressing unbelievers, he might just have preached the Gospel instead.
The epistle of James is focused thematically on the Christian overcoming the trials and tribulations of life. For that, works and not just faith are necessary.
The idea that James is dealing with a distinction between false and genuine faith is an eisegetical import into the text.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Did I just get a whiff of Antinomianism??
DF: There are some good arguments that the demons comment is not James' words but that of an hypothetical opponent.
GR: Yeah, I've seen those arguments, and I've seen them whither in the heat of debate. So, whether they're "good" arguments or not is prolly a matter of pre-existing commitments.
DF:James' whole point in that chapter is that it is necessary to combine faith with works. If works are an inevitable outcome of faith, then that would hardly be a necessary point to make.
GR: Works are the inevitable outcome of only one kind of faith...the saving kind. You can have "faith" without works if you want to. Just don't expect that faith to save your sould. I would submit that the need to propagate that warning is sufficient reason for him to write as he did.
DF: If James was addressing unbelievers, he might just have preached the Gospel instead.
GR: He is addressing Christians, and in uniformity with the rest of the Bible, is urging them to do the works that are worthy of the calling. Not to earn that calling in any way, but in consequence of having received it freely.
I am eiesegeting? Perhaps you can show me how. I am just trying to be true to the biblical text and perhaps a King James Only, dispensational, antinomian wacko has better exegetical skills than myself. Train me O great Wise scholar!
Joshua, do you think it is polite or intelligent to call people wackos?
As to the issue, what in the text indicates that a false faith and not a genuine faith is in view?
Gordan,
'Just don't expect that faith to save your sould.'
The word soul can is often used in scripture to refer to life, or physical life. Thus, the salvation here is not salvation from eternal death, but salvation from physical calamity.
'He is addressing Christians, and in uniformity with the rest of the Bible, is urging them to do the works that are worthy of the calling.'
If he is addressing Christians, then he is addressing persons with faith, a genuine not a spurious faith. If that be the case, it supports my contention that a genuine saving faith may be lacking in works.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew, I fail to see how a naked faith, absent of real-world manifestation, is going to save anyone's physical life...?
If he is addressing Christians, he is addressing those who have confessed faith. The fact that he writes to the whole congregation is no proof that he thinks the whole congregation has saving faith. He's not pronouncing on the spiritual state of each individual who might read or hear his words, but merely addressing them in consideration of their confession.
Plus, even if your contention on this part is correct, your reasoning is circular. What you've asserted is that James' words are not strictly his, but rather an anticipated objection. You need to prove that he's teaching faith may exist without works. Even if he is writing to a congregation which he believes is totally elect, then this does not effect what he said about the belief of demons.
In essence, this is your argument:
1. Saving faith may be without works.
2. The Christians James wrote to were all saved.
3. Therefore, their faith may have existed without works.
See, what you've done is assume the correctness of your first assertion in order to come back around and prove it's true. But that's exactly what I'm saying that you haven't even begun to prove. Assertion 1 is unbiblical. So 2 and 3 are irrelevant as of this point.
Blessings to you as well.
Matthew,
I honestly wish you were correct. That would mean my entire family would be saved...
However, they are all decieved into thinking they are Heavenbound Christians and that it gives them a free pass to sin with impunity.
This is a sad result of them growing-up while sitting under Antinomian Southern Baptist preaching influenced by the theology of J.N. Darby and C.I. Scofield...
-RK
To the Mafia and Dyspraxic Fundamentalist:
I seek forgiveness for my comment that was out of line and flowed from a heart of pride. I am thankful for a dear friend and member of the Mafia calling me out on my earlier comment. I really do appreciate all who comment here. So I am humbly seeking forgiveness and am asking my brethren in the faith to call me out when I comment in a spirit that does not reflect the character of Christ. Thanks.
Ok, is James dealing with the issue of saving faith versus superficial faith?
Well let us look at the text:
There are two types of faith in view:
1. Faith without works (14)
2. Faith manifest through works. (18)
Look at the two rhetorical questions that James begins this section with:
"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? CAN THAT FAITH SAVE HIM?
After illustrating his point James gives us his answer:
So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
The answers two his two rhetorical questions are nothing and no. If that type of faith (without works) is dead (nekros), how can it accomplish any effective work? How can something dead do anything? It can't. So can that dead faith doe anything...No, and that is the point James is making. This is merely a superficial faith, perhaps an intellectual assent to the gospel, but there is no true repentance and no sanctification connected with that type of faith. This is the same type of faith as the demons that James points out: DF, would you say that sense the "Demons believe" that they too are also Christians and are in heaven worshiping the Lord Jesus Christ?
James points out that true genuine faith is manifest, and even brought to completion through works or righteousness (22).
The whole point of my post is that believe the right things, having faith in the right things is not enough. That faith must be an active faith manifest in how a person lives their lives, not a dead, superficial faith than cannot do anything, especially save anyone.
Joshua, thanks.
Joshua
"There are two types of faith in view:
1. Faith without works (14)
2. Faith manifest through works. (18)"
Exactly. James is contrasting faith without works with faith with works.
That is the only distinction identified. James does not in any way identify the faith without works as a false faith, a spurious faith or a 'purely intellectual faith' (assuming such a distinction is meaningful, which I do not believe it is).
"The answers two his two rhetorical questions are nothing and no. If that type of faith (without works) is dead (nekros), how can it accomplish any effective work? How can something dead do anything? It can't."
Indeed. The faith wihthout works is an ineffective faith. It cannot accomplish anything.
That is not a question of redemption. A Christian's redemption is not accomplished by her faith, it is received by faith, but it is purely by grace. But that is not at issue here. The epistle of James is not concerned with soteriology, it is focused on issues of Christian living. A dead faith is useless for Christian living.
"DF, would you say that sense the "Demons believe" that they too are also Christians and are in heaven worshiping the Lord Jesus Christ?"
I believe the comment about demons is not James words but a comment by the hypothetical objector. James contradicts this comment when he gives his reply 'But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead'
Even if the comment were James' words and was used to support its argument, it would merely be a rhetorical rather than a doctrinal point. The faith of demons is a faith that God exists, not a faitn in Christ. What is more our Lord did not suffer and die for demons, so they will never be saved.
"That faith must be an active faith manifest in how a person lives their lives, not a dead, superficial faith than cannot do anything, especially save anyone."
The faith without works is unable to save. But there are different apsects of salvation in Scripture. The salvation in question here is the salvation of persons already born-again, a salvation from trials, teptations and the temporal judgment of God through sickness and death.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Rhett, we are saved by faith alone. He that believeth in the Son hath everlasting life. There is no qualification that works are involved.
If we have faith but do not have works, we will never progress in the Christian life and we will face consequences. But the gift of God in Christ is purely by grace through faith.
God Bless
Matthew
Gordan,
"I fail to see how a naked faith, absent of real-world manifestation, is going to save anyone's physical life...?"
It certainly will not. Such a faith will not overcome the world and a person who has such a faith is at risk of the deadly consequences of sin. But that is not a question of whether she has eternal life.
"If he is addressing Christians, he is addressing those who have confessed faith. The fact that he writes to the whole congregation is no proof that he thinks the whole congregation has saving faith. He's not pronouncing on the spiritual state of each individual who might read or hear his words, but merely addressing them in consideration of their confession."
James addresses his epistle to brethren who he says are born again. If he switches his message to persons in the congregation who are not born again, you need to be able to show that is the case and how that fits in with the rest of the theme of the epistle.
"You need to prove that he's teaching faith may exist without works."
To the reader that comes to James' epsitle cold that should be obvious. James says that 'faith without works is dead.'
Is a dead cat a non-existent cat?
Is a wrecked car a non-existent car?
"In essence, this is your argument:
1. Saving faith may be without works.
2. The Christians James wrote to were all saved.
3. Therefore, their faith may have existed without works."
No, this is not my argument.
1. James warns persons that they must have works as well as faith.
2. The persons James writes to are believers.
3. Believers have faith.
4. Therefore a person may have faith without having works.
This is not circular reasoning.
To refute this argument, you need to refute 2). You need to show that James switches from addressing persons that he knows to be saved to warn persons in the congregation who are not really believers.
"Assertion 1 is unbiblical."
You sure about that?
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew,
We are saved by Grace through faith, however, though we are saved through faith alone the faith that saves will not be alone.
We must not overlook the fact that some who claim to be saved who are not.
I believe the sort of Grace that allows for a person to "believe" and yet never produce any fruit is not "free Grace", but rather cheap Grace.
True faith cannot help but show on the outside.
RK
Matthew,
I believe it was Calvin who noted that the church is a "mixed body." There will always be true and false mixed together; wheat and tares; good fish and bad fish; etc. etc... James is addressing the "tares" within the church.
-RK
Rhett, I think there is little difference between teaching that one is saved by faith and works and teaching that one is saved by a faith that is accompanied by works.
Either way, one must do something extra to secure ones salvation and leaves little room for assurance.
"I believe it was Calvin who noted that the church is a "mixed body." There will always be true and false mixed together; wheat and tares; good fish and bad fish; etc. etc... James is addressing the "tares" within the church."
That may well be true, but whether James touches on that is a different question.
To establish that false professors are in view you need to show that:
1) James addresses false believers in his comment (and justify that in the light of the thematic progression of the epistle).
2) That the faith without works that James refers to is a faith that is spurious and not genuine.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
One thing that we have to distinguish here,, that DF, I think will help in understanding what this text truly teaches is this: Is who James is talking to, and who James is talking about the same people?
Question number one can be agreed upon by all of us: James is addressing believers. He is speaking to Jewish believers to be exact.
As to our answer to the second question...let us see something you may have not thought about. All over the book of James, James is all about presenting hypothetical situations with hypothetical people to make his argument. For example in chapter one he frames his argument with "if anyone....then"
Look at 1:26. "if anyone" thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tounge but decieves his heart, this person's religion is worthless." This anyone is just that anyone. If a person exhibits these qualities, then there religion is merely an outward religion and is garbage, "Worthless" with no eternal value.
Ok, so what does this have to do with chapter 2?
James frames the same type of argument.
Verse 14? What good is it, my brothers.....OK, by this we know who he is talking to...believers. But look at the rest.
IF someone (just that, this gives no qualifying statement that this someone is a believer, but is a professor) says (does not mean he actually does, but he says he does), but does not have works?
Can that faith save him? And the answer as Fred has shown in the Greek, and common sense can answer, is an emphatic no, because that faith is dead.
So yes, James is talking to believers, but in some cases not about them. He is talking about a hypothetical situation of a person who merely professes faith, but has nothing to show that he actually posseses that faith he so boldly professes. The bible says that person is actually unsaved.
Answer this question from the text: Can a dead faith save anyone?
Joshua, there are different kinds of salvation in the Bible.
The question is what kind of salvation is in view here.
James is not written concerning eternal life. It is written about physical life in the world.
The first chapter of the epistle sets the theme: trial and temptation.
2 ¶ My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5 ¶ If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering: for he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.
9 ¶ Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
10 but the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
We see that temptation can lead to danger; the risk of death is introduced in 1:15:
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
A person needs to be saved from this death.
The possiblity of this physical death is spelled out in chapter 5:
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
19 ¶ Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
A believer who is in error needs to be saved. She may posess eternal life, but a faith that lacks works will not save her from death, the temporal consequence of sin.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
"Indeed. The faith wihthout works is an ineffective faith. It cannot accomplish anything.
That is not a question of redemption. A Christian's redemption is not accomplished by her faith, it is received by faith, but it is purely by grace."
We are saved by grace through faith, but if that is a dead faith, it is ineffective to receive redemption and therefore be justified. A dead faith is not an active faith in the redemptive work of Christ.
"But that is not at issue here. The epistle of James is not concerned with soteriology, it is focused on issues of Christian living. A dead faith is useless for Christian living."
Matthew, where do you get this from the text. I do not see how you say this, because I don't see this from the text. This is based off of a presupposition that you are reading into the text, and is not warranted exegetically nor contextually.
"DF, would you say that sense the "Demons believe" that they too are also Christians and are in heaven worshiping the Lord Jesus Christ?"
"I believe the comment about demons is not James words but a comment by the hypothetical objector."
So James didn't write them? How do you know? This statement to is unwarranted.
James contradicts this comment when he gives his reply 'But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead'
Even if the comment were James' words and was used to support its argument, it would merely be a rhetorical rather than a doctrinal point.
"The faith of demons is a faith that God exists, not a faith in Christ." Precisely...and this is the type of faith that is without works, just like the demons. Faith that God exists, but not faith in CHrist...That Faith is dead. (which is James' entire point.)
"What is more our Lord did not suffer and die for demons, so they will never be saved."
Yes, and Jesus did not suffer and die for those who are perishing in hell either. If he did, he did not accomplish what the Father sent him to do.
"That faith must be an active faith manifest in how a person lives their lives, not a dead, superficial faith than cannot do anything, especially save anyone."
"The faith without works is unable to save. But there are different apsects of salvation in Scripture. The salvation in question here is the salvation of persons already born-again, a salvation from trials, teptations and the temporal judgment of God through sickness and death."
Again, where does this come from the text...This my friend is eiesegesis. You are reading into the text what you want it to say. The text does not say salvation from trials, tempations, etc.?
Matthew, you need to be very careful. Although you may not brand yourself as an antinomian, essentially that is your view. Here is your view:
I have faith in Christ in some form at some point in life, and my life does not have to reflect that faith, and I can still be saved. SO as long as I have "faith in CHrist" I can live like a lost pagan and still have the hope of eternal life. Jude calls people who believe this ungodly, and that they pervert the grace of OUr God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ."
These are harsh words from the Bible, but essentially, you are in denial of the Lordship of Christ as something that is essential to salvation. This view perverts the grace of God into a license of sin.
Matthew, you need to be very careful to not be deceived from the teachers who are teaching this to you. True believers have been translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light, and serve a new master. In other words, true believers submit to the Lordship of Christ, and live under is rule and governance. I pray that you will not be deceived by anyone who teaches otherwise.
Joshua, you are doing a some heavy moderating here.
"A dead faith is not an active faith in the redemptive work of Christ."
I do not know where you get that. It is only James who talks about dead faith and redemption from the eternal consequences of sin is beyond the scope of what he says in chapter 2 or the rest of the epistle.
"This is based off of a presupposition that you are reading into the text, and is not warranted exegetically nor contextually."
"So James didn't write them? How do you know? This statement to is unwarranted."
The demons comment is part of a continous flow of discourse that the objector would say:
18 ¶ Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
The demons comment is what 'a man' may say. That is that if a person has faith, they have works (the demons do works, they tremble).
James gives his answer to the objector in the next verse:
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
The objector says tha if one has faith, one has works. James says, no, a man may have a dead faith that lacks works.
Have a read of my last comment. The one that you have not made visible yet.
"Again, where does this come from the text...This my friend is eiesegesis. You are reading into the text what you want it to say. The text does not say salvation from trials, tempations, etc.?"
See my last comment. Chapter 5 explicitly refers to salvation from sickness. The theme of the epistle is Christian living, trial, tempation, right conduct, chastening, sickness and death. Deliverance from hell is entirely absent as a theme from James' epistle.
"I have faith in Christ in some form at some point in life, and my life does not have to reflect that faith, and I can still be saved. SO as long as I have "faith in CHrist" I can live like a lost pagan and still have the hope of eternal life. Jude calls people who believe this ungodly, and that they pervert the grace of OUr God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ.""
I leave to your own conscience the appropriateness of this paragraph. It is an utter misrepresentation.
I have no idea why you think I am saying that sinful behaviour is acceptable.
Sin leads to death. If you live a sinful lifestyle, sooner or later you will die, either from the natural consequences of that behaviour or through God's judgement. Furthermore, a Christian who lives a sinful lifestyle will have to answer at the judgment seat of Christ where there are consequences for a lack of faithfulness.
"True believers have been translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light, and serve a new master. In other words, true believers submit to the Lordship of Christ, and live under is rule and governance."
Where do you get that idea?
"A dead faith is not an active faith in the redemptive work of Christ."
"I do not know where you get that. It is only James who talks about dead faith and redemption from the eternal consequences of sin is beyond the scope of what he says in chapter 2 or the rest of the epistle."
Well, I get that from the word dead...Thats what it means...dead. useless, non-active...because it is dead. An active faith saves, not a dead faith. I must actively trust in Christ, unlike the faith of a corpse.
I honestly don't see your point in your understanding of what the someone in verse 18 says. The someone is not in objection to what James is saying, rather, he is in agreement.
yes, a person can posses a faith that is dead....James says that. But the whole point is, is THAT faith Salvific? That is why James asked the question, can that faith save him? Clear exegesis has been done to prove the answer is no. Now the burden of proof is on you.
"Chapter 5 explicitly refers to salvation from sickness." Really, I know sickness is mentioned, but so is sin, forgiveness, and saving his soul from death, not sickness"
"True believers have been translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light, and serve a new master. In other words, true believers submit to the Lordship of Christ, and live under is rule and governance."
Where do you get that idea?
Simple...The Bible...It is clear.
I also want to comment on your conclusions from your first comment of the day:
"A believer who is in error needs to be saved. She may posess eternal life, but a faith that lacks works will not save her from death, the temporal consequence of sin."
Newsflash: A faith with works won't save a person from death either. We all will die, no matter what level of sanctification. DO you suppose that someone with faith and works will live forever on earth? I have no idea what you are talking about anymore.
Ephesians 2
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ORDAINED THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM. (emphasis added)
Yeah...its everywhere in the Scripture.
"Well, I get that from the word dead...Thats what it means...dead. useless, non-active...because it is dead. An active faith saves, not a dead faith. I must actively trust in Christ, unlike the faith of a corpse."
The problem here is you are bringing up a subject that is beyond the scope of James' theme. James is not concerned in this chapter about the efficacy of faith in terms of redemption.
He uses the metaphorical term dead to show the uselessness of a faith without words in the Christian life.
As the recipients of the epistle were believers, the issue of whether their faith has obtained redemption was irrelevant.
"I honestly don't see your point in your understanding of what the someone in verse 18 says. The someone is not in objection to what James is saying, rather, he is in agreement."
The objector is saying "I have faith, therefore I do works. The demons believe in God and even they do works, they tremble."
James says in reply that there is a faith that is dead, because it does no works.
"That is why James asked the question, can that faith save him? Clear exegesis has been done to prove the answer is no. Now the burden of proof is on you."
I have already explained that the salvation here is not salvation from the eternal consequences of sin, but from trial, temptation and sickness and death.
"Chapter 5 explicitly refers to salvation from sickness." Really, I know sickness is mentioned, but so is sin, forgiveness, and saving his soul from death, not sickness"
A regenerate person needs forgiveness. That is why we are to confess our sins, as the apostle John teaches us. Saving a soul from death refers to salvation from untimely physical death. The word soul frequently refers to physical life in Scripture.
"Where do you get that idea?
Simple...The Bible...It is clear."
I do not believe the Bible teaches any such thing.
"Newsflash: A faith with works won't save a person from death either. We all will die, no matter what level of sanctification. DO you suppose that someone with faith and works will live forever on earth? I have no idea what you are talking about anymore."
We are going to die unless the Lord should come in our lifetimes. However, the Scriptures teach that we can die prematurely as a result of sin, for instance Ananias and Saphirah and the Corinthian believers who ate the Lord's Supper unworthily. We need delivering from such a fate. That requires a life of holiness and consecration.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Oh my goodness! When the Free Grace Extremeists aren't parading for the rights of every serial killer to go to heaven who once said they believed and then went on a serial killing spree, now you have God killing believers as an act of wrath for not living a "holy" and "consecrated" life. You guys are antinomian on the one hand and legalists on the other. Would you guys make up your mind! Free Grace theology is the most pitiful theology on the face of the planet. Why doesn't Free Grace theology call it what their equally confused Pelagian forfathers call it: "Mortal" sin.
Gojira,
You are a meanie.
Call me whatever you want Rose.
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