tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post378929110584917448..comments2023-10-03T04:23:48.046-07:00Comments on Reformed Mafia: Objections to Reformed Theology #1Machine Gun Kelleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17501532765910479437noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-23694424576680991032007-12-04T17:32:00.000-08:002007-12-04T17:32:00.000-08:00Luke,I'm the original owner of the blog and I stan...Luke,<BR/><BR/>I'm the original owner of the blog and I stand behind Gordan's decision. Just drop the issue and everything will be fine. Savvy??Machine Gun Kelleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17501532765910479437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-64898594417657024672007-12-04T16:58:00.000-08:002007-12-04T16:58:00.000-08:00Well, I didn't say you said something new. I said ...Well, I didn't say you said something new. I said you were forthright. <BR/><BR/>You said, "your point appears to be that those who witnessed Christ had some advantage as compared to others? Granted that is true, but that was not the puropse of his ministry."<BR/><BR/>I never suggested that was the purpose, but you agree with me that was an effect of His ministry.<BR/><BR/>So the question becomes, Did God choose to allow the ministry of Christ to give some an "advantage" in terms of salvation? If so, isn't this sort of election-lite?<BR/><BR/>I asked, "So, then, would you agree that in your system there comes a point in God's dealings with the people He is determined to save, a point at which His patience runs out with them and judgment overcomes mercy?"<BR/><BR/>Your response was, "No, I would say that there is a point wher his patience ends, and judgement results (Romans 2:4-5)."<BR/><BR/>I fail to see the difference in meaning. You said, "patience ends" instead of "patience runs out"; and "judgement results" instead of "judgment overcomes mercy."<BR/><BR/>Okay, you didn't like my clever turn of phrase there, but other than that?<BR/><BR/>Maybe then you could explain your take on the theme of Psalms 136, in which every verse ends with the phrase, in the ESV: "For His steadfast love endures forever." (This Psalm is addressed to the same group encompassed by Romans 2:4-5, btw.) <BR/><BR/>It seems you are suggesting that a better translation might read: "For His steadfast love endures for only so long, and then judgment results."<BR/><BR/>Your answer to this question will go a "fer piece" toward showing whether your view is really all that coherent or not. (And why Calvinism, almost aside from being merely true, is also a more comforting and edifying theology in pastoral terms.)Gordanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527530618839981892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-9039992438987360362007-12-04T16:07:00.000-08:002007-12-04T16:07:00.000-08:00Gordan,Thank you for a remarkably forthright answe...Gordan,<BR/><BR/><I>Thank you for a remarkably forthright answer. Now, I think we may actually move forward.</I><BR/><BR/>You're welcome. But I said nothing new.<BR/><BR/><I>Would you say it's right to propose that God has chosen to be more patient with some people in regards to their repentance and salvation (e.g. Old Covenant Jews), than He has chosen to be with others (pagans who lived in Sodom and Tyre and Sidon)?</I><BR/><BR/>Not really. I could be misunderstanding you, but your point appears to be that those who witnessed Christ had some advantage as compared to others? Granted that is true, but that was not the puropse of his ministry. The purpose of his ministry was to perform the miracles for all of humanity, for the rest of time.<BR/><BR/>This is the point of John 20:29-30:<BR/><BR/><I>29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." 30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.</I><BR/><BR/><I>So, then, would you agree that in your system there comes a point in God's dealings with the people He is determined to save, a point at which His patience runs out with them and judgment overcomes mercy?</I><BR/><BR/>No, I would say that there is a point wher his patience ends, and judgement results (Romans 2:4-5).Arminianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04719886141902151434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-13860279427363470472007-12-04T15:56:00.000-08:002007-12-04T15:56:00.000-08:00rhett,We're all very much aware of that... Now ple...rhett,<BR/><BR/><I>We're all very much aware of that... Now please try to stop whining about it or you won't have to worry about posting comments here any longer.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm replying to the accusation of one of the owners of this blog, and that comment disproves his point. If you have an objection to my replying to someone who runs this blog, then you have every right to threaten me.Arminianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04719886141902151434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-48407044863942829822007-12-04T14:49:00.000-08:002007-12-04T14:49:00.000-08:00Luke,Thank you for a remarkably forthright answer....Luke,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for a remarkably forthright answer. Now, I think we may actually move forward.<BR/><BR/>Specifically, in light of what you have just answered me, would you agree that God does not give everyone the same opportunities to come to faith in Christ?<BR/><BR/>Would you say it's right to propose that God has chosen to be more patient with some people in regards to their repentance and salvation (e.g. Old Covenant Jews), than He has chosen to be with others (pagans who lived in Sodom and Tyre and Sidon)?<BR/><BR/>So, then, would you agree that in your system there comes a point in God's dealings with the people He is determined to save, a point at which His patience runs out with them and judgment overcomes mercy?Gordanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527530618839981892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-92073309537736583752007-12-04T13:18:00.000-08:002007-12-04T13:18:00.000-08:00Luke,"In addition, my summary post was deleted."We...Luke,<BR/><BR/>"In addition, my summary post was deleted."<BR/><BR/>We're all very much aware of that... Now please try to stop whining about it or you won't have to worry about posting comments here any longer.Machine Gun Kelleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17501532765910479437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-85183449127997434172007-12-04T12:42:00.000-08:002007-12-04T12:42:00.000-08:00Paul,If all you've done is read a couple posts, it...Paul,<BR/><BR/>If all you've done is read a couple posts, it's no wonder that you don't understand what's going on. I've been making comments within the context of a discussion that has covered two or more threads. In addition, my summary post was deleted.Arminianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04719886141902151434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-38254143075354748282007-12-04T07:40:00.000-08:002007-12-04T07:40:00.000-08:00Luke,Never mind, i am reading what you wrote to Go...Luke,<BR/><BR/>Never mind, i am reading what you wrote to Gordan and see how you misused Acts, Romans, and Matthew. You have bigger problems than just prevenient grace. <BR/><BR/>I do not have the time to deal with this much confusion as you show from your analysis of the sacred text. maybe some other time. i will pray though that the Lord lead you to true understanding.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07822172330383243446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-30691451111411340442007-12-04T07:27:00.000-08:002007-12-04T07:27:00.000-08:00Luke,"For synergism to be true, God must give the ...Luke,<BR/><BR/>"For synergism to be true, God must give the ability to believe through his enabling grace."<BR/><BR/>I take it that you are referring to "prevenient grace" and yet can you show me where in Scripture it talks about God putting a sinner in a neutral state? Arminianism is grounded on a false and unprovable premise,prevenient grace, until you come to grips with that then you will always have skewed view of the Bible.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07822172330383243446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-24959434137873129852007-12-04T07:18:00.000-08:002007-12-04T07:18:00.000-08:00Paul:I agree with you completely. I can not unders...Paul:<I>I agree with you completely. I can not understand how Luke does not see that he in fact does that by making statements like <B>"... if regeneration precedes faith, then what else is necessary, and why do you say it’s necessary?</B>", if he is not conflating the two here than this makes no sense. Since he seems like he is a somewhat intelligent guy I will take it that he conflates the two due to his ignorance on the subject.</I><BR/><BR/>Your words in bold, above, indicate that you are taking my words out of context. Josh had argued that God knows what's necessary to get people to believe, so he said that Christ can perform miracles to get people to believe. My point is that, according to C, those miracles are not necessary at all for anyone to be regenerated. So I asked, if regeneration is all that's necessary, why argue that miracles are necessary? "it's" refers to the miracles mentioned in this comment concerning how people are saved:<BR/><BR/><I>1. God knows the means necessary to bring everyone to salvation (which includes regeneration, for that precedes faith)<BR/><BR/>Miracles shown --> Tyre and Sidon regenerated --> they repent and believe -->they are saved.</I><BR/><BR/>According to C, the miracles are not necessary, so I asked how he could say that they are. <BR/><BR/>Of course, my point that they had the ability to believe stands. Jesus says that they would have believed. Thus follow my arguments concerning God's enabling grace being active.Arminianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04719886141902151434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-31504187923467368532007-12-04T07:05:00.000-08:002007-12-04T07:05:00.000-08:00Gordan,1.Synergists believe that God actively and ...Gordan,<BR/><BR/><I>1.Synergists believe that God actively and always desires that each individual should repent and come to the knowledge of salvation.<BR/>2. In the case of Tyre and Sidon, God knew that they would have <BR/>repented if He had performed some miracles in their midst, as He had in Jerusalem, Bethsaida, Chorazin, etc.<BR/>3. But God chose not to perform those miracles that would have brought about their repentance, thus allowing the ones in question to perish in their sins.<BR/>4. Now the challenge to you has been, how can all the above be fit together in your view? Since God knew what would bring about repentance, and chose not to do that, how then can we understand the statement that He actively desires that each individual repent?</I><BR/><BR/>The miracles Christ performed were part of his ministry to show that he was the Messiah. People believed both before and after that, and as I've shown only Arminianism can explain that.<BR/><BR/>For synergism to be true, God must give the ability to believe through his enabling grace. Yet, for some reason, you think that for synergism to be true, God's patience must be unlimited, and he must do all that is possible for as long as is possible. That is a false premise, that no one believes. I've shown, irrefutably, that those people did have he ability, and I've shown that the limit to God's patience is clearly shown in Scripture. <BR/><BR/>So you can continually ask "Why not more?" and my answer is that Scripture indicates that the limit to God's patience is the reason. You may object to God's patience being limited, but that's what Scripture teaches. And, as I've shown, it teaches that unbelievers who did end up perishing did have the ability to believe, until the opportunity passed.<BR/><BR/><I>This is the point that I do not believe you have addressed. And, no, I don't believe for a second that the answer lies hidden underneath the multiple hundred words of the one post I deleted.</I><BR/><BR/>I have shown from Scripture (e.g. Acts 3:26) that Christ came to save everyone, yet not everyone believes. I showed from Scripture that God patience is meant to lead everyone to repentance (Romans 3:4-5), but that wrath is the result of not repenting. Finally, I showed that God does give the ability to believe (Matt 11) to people who sometimes do not believe. So here is what we have:<BR/><BR/>1. People who have the ability to believe do not always believe. Hence Arminianism.<BR/><BR/>2. Christ came to turn each one from their wicked ways, and God's patience is meant to lead them to repentance. Hence Arminianism.<BR/><BR/>3. Contrary to what you think I should be arguing, God's patience is limited, and when it is exhausted wrath will fall upon those who have not repented, even if another day, another rebuke or another sign would have made a difference. Hence Arminianism.Arminianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04719886141902151434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-83851234602752421982007-12-04T05:30:00.000-08:002007-12-04T05:30:00.000-08:00Gordon,I agree with you completely. I can not unde...Gordon,<BR/><BR/>I agree with you completely. I can not understand how Luke does not see that he in fact does that by making statements like "... if regeneration precedes faith, then what else is necessary, and why do you say it’s necessary?", if he is not conflating the two here than this makes no sense. Since he seems like he is a somewhat intelligent guy I will take it that he conflates the two due to his ignorance on the subject.<BR/><BR/>So it should be pretty clear that there has been no false accusation made by me.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07822172330383243446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-67566619485016565412007-12-04T05:03:00.000-08:002007-12-04T05:03:00.000-08:00Paul,The issue of the conflation of regeneration a...Paul,<BR/><BR/>The issue of the conflation of regeneration and justification is at the heart of a lot of the discussions currently going on here, I agree. Under the earlier post, "Kangaroo D'Oh!" that is definately the case.<BR/><BR/>Since regeneration leads inexhorably to final glorification in heaven, then both of those and everything that happens in between are assumed to be equally in view when John uses the word "life" in his gospel. But I think the Scriptures demand a logical separation between regeneration/justification, if not a discernable chronological separation.Gordanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527530618839981892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-44266089985625478082007-12-04T04:55:00.000-08:002007-12-04T04:55:00.000-08:00Luke, I do appreciate that you think you answered...Luke, I do appreciate that you think you answered my question way back when. Anyone who is interested can go back and see whether that's the case, even without your final opus.<BR/><BR/>But please allow me to state the question posed here as I see it. Joshua, please correct as needed:<BR/><BR/>1.Synergists believe that God actively and always desires that each individual should repent and come to the knowledge of salvation.<BR/><BR/>2. In the case of Tyre and Sidon, God knew that they would have repented if He had performed some miracles in their midst, as He had in Jerusalem, Bethsaida, Chorazin, etc.<BR/><BR/>3. But God chose not to perform those miracles that would have brought about their repentance, thus allowing the ones in question to perish in their sins.<BR/><BR/>4. Now the challenge to you has been, how can all the above be fit together in your view? Since God knew what would bring about repentance, and chose not to do that, how then can we understand the statement that He actively desires that each individual repent?<BR/><BR/>This is the point that I do not believe you have addressed. And, no, I don't believe for a second that the answer lies hidden underneath the multiple hundred words of the one post I deleted.Gordanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527530618839981892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-43086062902629919792007-12-04T03:36:00.000-08:002007-12-04T03:36:00.000-08:00whats the deal people!? My goodness...I have never...whats the deal people!? My goodness...I have never seen so much immaturity in my life!!! Guys...I don't care if you are Calvinist, Arminian, or a Giant Pink Elephant...grow up a little bit before you continue commenting on this blog. Such immature bickering will not be tolerated here.Joshua A. Hitchcockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16249446425823291103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-33782254820103116362007-12-03T21:00:00.000-08:002007-12-03T21:00:00.000-08:00Paul,You've said that I equate regeneration with j...Paul,<BR/><BR/>You've said that I equate regeneration with justification. That is a false accusation.Arminianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04719886141902151434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-77738231803086881482007-12-03T19:36:00.000-08:002007-12-03T19:36:00.000-08:00Luke,Reading your comments so far it seems rather ...Luke,<BR/><BR/>Reading your comments so far it seems rather clear to me when you say what else is necessary if one has been regenerated, implying what is the point of faith. Again, you may not see that you are conflating the two... but you are.<BR/><BR/>If you had a proper perspective on it you would not have made some of the statements that you have made so far.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07822172330383243446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-37261424674444054832007-12-03T19:26:00.000-08:002007-12-03T19:26:00.000-08:00Paul,I didn't mention justification, nor did anyon...Paul,<BR/><BR/>I didn't mention justification, nor did anyone else. That is not the topic of this thread. We have also discussed total depravity in another thread.<BR/><BR/>However, we <I>have</I> been talking about regeneration.Arminianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04719886141902151434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-24650720215768389592007-12-03T19:17:00.000-08:002007-12-03T19:17:00.000-08:00Luke,The problem you have is the same problem that...Luke,<BR/><BR/>The problem you have is the same problem that most Arminians seem to have and that is you conflate regeneration with justification. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. In order to respond to the Spirit one's spirit must be quickened. That is the point of total depravity. Man in his sinful state can not respond to the gospel because his spirit is dead. He needs eyes to be opened and ears unplugged and a heart of flesh, it is then possible for him to see himself for what he really is and what his standing is with God.<BR/><BR/>As long as you equate regeneration with justification you will never be able to understand fully the Reformed position.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07822172330383243446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-1658660434942982452007-12-03T18:11:00.000-08:002007-12-03T18:11:00.000-08:00He can zap whatever he wants because it's his blog...He can zap whatever he wants because it's his blog. However, if he's going to pretend that I didn't address his points, then he's going to have to prove it. As it stands, he's shown he doesn't want me to prove that I did address his point. I have allowed, and will continue to allow, Gordan to control what issues I address and will continue to address them in every detail that he requests until he stops saying that I haven't addressed them. I've always done this and will continue to do this.<BR/><BR/>It's his blog, and he's the boss.Arminianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04719886141902151434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-39800372036314306402007-12-03T17:56:00.000-08:002007-12-03T17:56:00.000-08:00If Gordan zaps a comment...then I trust it is wort...If Gordan zaps a comment...then I trust it is worthy of zapping...if you feel like being heard email me at servindalord@hotmail.comJoshua A. Hitchcockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16249446425823291103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-70565252197770647822007-12-03T17:47:00.000-08:002007-12-03T17:47:00.000-08:00GordanYou are a patient man, moreso than I am, but...Gordan<I>You are a patient man, moreso than I am, but this is the very same point I was trying to get Luke to address in the comment section I finally shut down. I see you have learned from my mistakes and are giving a warning, at least.</I><BR/><BR/>Not only did I address your point, but you deleted my post that proved that I addressed your point. In fact, I allowed you to pick what I addressed. If you like, I'll repost it, and let everyone be the judge of whether or not there was a single issue that I did not address previously to that post or included in that post.Arminianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04719886141902151434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-10675096684481116332007-12-03T17:20:00.000-08:002007-12-03T17:20:00.000-08:00Joshua,You are a patient man, moreso than I am, bu...Joshua,<BR/><BR/>You are a patient man, moreso than I am, but this is the very same point I was trying to get Luke to address in the comment section I finally shut down. I see you have learned from my mistakes and are giving a warning, at least.Gordanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527530618839981892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-2474647668964637922007-12-03T16:38:00.000-08:002007-12-03T16:38:00.000-08:00Josh: Ok...again....Christ knows what it will take...Josh: <I>Ok...again....Christ knows what it will take to regenerate a soul in order for them to believe....Understand this...God doesnt just regenerate people out of nowhere...he uses means....Matthew 11 is simply saying what those means would be...it doesn't prove your point at all dude.</I>.<BR/><BR/>We agree that he uses means. However:<BR/><BR/>1. Contrary to your statement above, it is the Calvinist position that God does “regenerate people out of nowhere.” Granted, in the Calvinist explanation God does it association with the gospel, but the content of the information is not what effects/affects the regeneration. The conversion itself is “out of nowhere.”<BR/><BR/>2. It does prove my point. It’s not that they could have believed but didn’t. It proves that they had the ability to believe. That proves A and disproves C. For C does not believe that the unregenerate can believe, nor do they believe that the regenerate can do anything <I>but</I> believe. <BR/><BR/><I>No....I dont mean questions about reformed theology that you don't understand...I mean objections you have to reformed theology, and pose them as questions. I don't think there is anything difficult about what I am asking you to do. I am sure you have objections to reformed theology, or you would be a Calvinist.</I><BR/><BR/>All my objections to Reformed theology are exegetical. I’m much more calloused to some of the A objections to C because of my background. <BR/><BR/><I>You assume way too much in the biblical text. The text does not even speak of ability. In fact thats not even an issue in the text. The issue is judgement upon the cities mentioned for their obstinancy.</I><BR/><BR/>Two things:<BR/><BR/>1. As mentioned above, the point I’m making has to be taken for granted because of what was said. In fact, I know of no C commentary that doesn’t explicitly or tacitly assume the point I’m making, even though they don’t realize the implications.<BR/><BR/>2. The judgment that falls upon the people is related to this ability. Without the ability, the relative harshness of judgment, explicit in the text, makes no sense. The alternate outcome Christ mentions also make no sense unless I am correct.<BR/><BR/><I>This verse reveals to things:<BR/><BR/>1. God knows the means necessary to bring everyone to salvation (which includes regeneration, for that precedes faith)</I><BR/><BR/>Dude, (1) if regeneration precedes faith, then what else is necessary, and why do you say it’s necessary? And (2) if they had the ability to believe, then they already were regenerated according to C. We must conclude, then, that A is true. There is no alternative. None.<BR/><BR/><I>Miracles shown --> Tyre and Sidon regenerated --> they repent and believe -->they are saved</I>.<BR/><BR/>No, it does not say that if the miracles had been performed they would have been regenerated first. It says if the miracles had been performed they would have believed. Christ’s words mean what they say. <BR/><BR/>Christ’s words: “If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.”<BR/><BR/><I>But that didnt happen, but God knew exactly what was necessary if this is to occur...This does not even imply the ability of the unregenerate...that is simply an assumption you must make based on the theological presuppositions of your system.</I><BR/><BR/>God doesn’t need for it to occur according to C. The miracles contribute nothing according to C. It makes no difference whatsoever according to C. God doesn't need them to regenerate according to C. It’s ironic that I’m the one teaching what C believes here. You talk about my "theological presuppositions," yet you ignore your own to the point that I have to defend the correct understanding of C.<BR/><BR/><I>2. The cities in view are very obstinate. These cities did not repent with all of the things that the Lord did in them.They will be judged greatly...Again...this does not apply ability..Ability is not an issue desire is. Their desire is to sin and rebel...thats what they will be judged for.</I><BR/><BR/>They will be judged for not repenting; that’s not the point, and no one disagrees. The point is that they <I>would have repented</I>. If they didn’t have the ability to repent, they couldn’t have repented, so they had the ability.<BR/><BR/><I>If I see any more assumptions in a text, your comment will be deleted.</I><BR/><BR/>You can threaten me all you like for asking you to address this question. I’m a mature adult and I can take it. You’re making assumptions and you admit it. We’re discussing the ramifications of your assumptions. However, if you fear to discuss the issue you brought up, and your assumptions, and my questions, by all means delete this post.<BR/><BR/>Here’s your assumption: God knows all it will take to save someone, and in their case it took miracles to save them. <--That is YOUR ASSUMPTION (already addressed by me). Also, you keep prompting me for questions concerning Reformed theology, as though I’m not asking any questions. My point is that I see a flaw in the theology, and I’m asking you to address it. Will you address it without finding a reason to stop the discussion?Arminianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04719886141902151434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-415658708707994862.post-82251784590315950832007-12-03T16:27:00.000-08:002007-12-03T16:27:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Arminianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04719886141902151434noreply@blogger.com